By now, you should have finished reading A Young Patriot, as well as the two Tim O'Brien pieces. The two works present very different perspectives on what war means; A Young Patriot tells the story of the American Revolution in broad strokes, while O'Brien tells a much more personal story. Spend a few minutes considering what the two different pieces have in common and where they differ in terms of what they say about war in general, and then post a comment sharing your thoughts with your classmates.
Some questions to help you get started: How do the two works give depth to one another? Or, in other words, what can you learn about one work by reading the other? After reading both, how has your understanding of war changed?
38 comments:
I can tell that in both readings
the soldiers (Tim and Joseph) are both very scared. Scared of might happen to themselves and what might happen to thier friends, and what they might do. They also are very proud of going to war. Like it is a privlage to serve at war, to fight for their liberty. The difference between the two of the soldeirs is that Tim gets very emotional over the whole thing/ concept of war.(dead man) His friend who tells him to get over brtushes it off like Joesph did in Young Patriot. I think it is interesting how two differnt people react towrds war in such differnet ways. After reading both readings,it seemed to me that war was not a pleasent thing but so many differnet people take part in it. In "Ambush"/ "The Man I Killed" the dead man took part in war, but didnt seem like he was that kind of person. But "he had been taught that to defend the land was a man's highest duty and highest privliage". Josph kind of had a similar reaction to war. He first joined the army because he had always wanted to serve as a soldier. After he realized how horrible war actually was he left, but then soon came back because he missed it. My perspective on war didnt change after reading the two readings. I always thought that war was not good. But the reading made me think more about it, and the people involved.
When you think of wars today, you think of people going willingly, but after hearing the story, you remeber there was a draft. Tim, if given the choice, would not have chosent to go. He had feelings towards the dead soldier, even though he had never met.
In a way, I think that Tim was mirrored in his story of the man. This man went for the pride of his town and family, according to Tim. Tim had to go, but something was the same in both stories. Neither of them wanted to be there. I think this shows how Tim thought about the whole thing.
Also, by not telling his daughter anything, I think Tim is keeping the truth away from himself too. Yes, it would give the daughter bad ideas, but still. He didn't have to say in detail. No, I think it was because he put the thought out of his mind. Tim himself didn't want to remember it.
What i found interesting is that Joseph seemed way more nonchelante about war than Tim. Joseph was younger than Tim when he served and he probably was fed less and didn't have as many benefits as Tim. Yet he still handeled death and war better than Tim did. I think it really depends much more than your age. War is very gruesome and for some people, brushing it off is the best thing. For others, talking about it and thinking about it is all they can do until the come to terms with what they and fellow soldiers did.
-caroline k.
In "A Young Patriot," it talks more about the hardships of being a soldier, such as lack of sufficient food and blankets. But in "Ambush" and "The Man I Killed," it focuses almost entirely on how Tim felt when killing the man. You can guess from this that Joseph may have felt that way about killing people too, especially since he was just a boy.
My understanding of war changed after reading these pieces, because before I had never really thought about soldiers being sad about killing the enemy. I had always assumed that they would just kill people on the opposing side without really thinking, but now I realized that they do have bad feelings about killing people, even if it is war.
WOW! i definetly think that these to stories are very different in the terms of how the soilders feel. In AYP, the soilders, including Joseph, along with all the other army members, only seem to be able to think about not having clothes, food and water. Where as in the Ambush story, Tim seems very focused on the fact that he is a part of the war and killing other soilders. It seems to me that Tim knew he was in war, and knew there would be killing involved, but it hit him hard when he actually was responsible for killing another man like himself. It seemed to me that in AYP Joseph and his comrades didnt give a second thought to who they killed, and it didnt bother them. But to Tim, seeing the man lying dead on the ground and knowing he would never return home to his family, was a very sad thought. It would be for me too. I dont think wars are meant to kill people, they are meant to make a statement. It really doesn't make a difference wether or not you know or support this statement - as long as you kill other people for it. This seems to effect people differently - and these two soilders reacted very differently.
~ chloe
Tim and Joseph are actually allike in the way that they do things automatically. They don't necisairly want to kill somebody but their training kiks in before they can think about it. They had to be on automatic though because if they wern't they wouldn't fight or at least not very well. To be honest you can't fight a war without the will to fight it, and the soldiers in Valley forge almost lost their will and Tim didn't even have a choice. Tims description of war is much more detailed but narrow. Tim's experiences though give a much more broader look at how every body was feeling including the generals and civilians, not just him. So when you put5 these two experiences and stories together you get an almost full picture of war itself.
You can tell that in both readings that the two main charcters (Josheph, Tim)thhat are scared and rather unwilling to to go and kill people in war. They are both very scared about what might happen if they are not careful. However the difference between Josheph and Tim is that Tim is is amazing disbelife that he just killed a man. Even thought he is war. Josheph in a way wanted to be a solider. But when he becomes a solider things turn around as did Tim. As i read these readings i learned a bit more about war. I always thought wra was a horiible thing but this changed my perspective of war and its real meaning.
~Dean Balabanov
The two stories have lots of differences and similarities. The main characters in both didn't want to go in the first place, and they were both a little unsure that they would fight very well. They also both tell what they did after their service in the army, although Tim did pretty well and Joseph went bankrupt, and, eventually, blind. However, they also don't show a lot of Joseph's life and what he was doing during every battle, while the "The Man I Killed/Ambush" focuses on Tim the whole time.
In "A Young Patriot" I think it talks a lot about how difficult a soldiers life is during the war without victuals, blankets, and other necessities a soldier needs. In the two Tim O'Brien stories he talks about his feelings and about him killing the man with a grenade. I think Joseph was worried about killing someone and being killed just like Tim. Also I think Tim might have felt like Joseph because he might of had the same lack of provisions.
My understanding of war has changed after reading these pieces, by them letting me know that war is more than killing someone on purpose and then going on with the day. Now I see that some deaths may have been accidental and the people who did it aren't always happy about it in the end. Another thing I understand now is that everything wasn't peachy kine during war times, they went through hard times with no food, clothes, blankets, sometimes water, and much more.
--Aasha H.
I thought it was interesting how in AYP, the limitations where in their equiptment, while in Ambush and The Man I Killed, the limitation is of moral ethics.
Also, the fact that one is from perspective of a guerrula fighter, and the other is of an invasion force.
It seemes as though the perspectives are switched, as in The Man I Killed, the victim has very limited weaponry, and says so: "He wouldn't fight the Americans, with their tanks, and helicopters."
Finally, I find it interesting how in both, the rebeling side defeats the invading side.
Nice layout, by the way.
-Jeremy A.
Here it is, Sunday morning, and there are already a whole bunch of thoughtful comments. I'm impressed by the insight several of you have brought to this forum regarding the two readings (AYP and "Ambush").
For those of you who haven't posted yet, I encourage you to respond to your classmates' ideas. My original questions are really there to get the conversation started--where you choose to go from there is up to you, as long as you stay within the framework of the overall topic.
I find it hard to believe that it is the training that forces both tim and joseph to respond. I think that it is rather ther fear of being acted against by the enemy, however i don't think that these to poeple can be put at equal when in fact Tim feals empethetic and well joseph doesn't. The readings by Tim O'Brien are not so much complaining about the terrible things which sodiers must endure but more the terror that grips you when you first KILL a person. All that i hear josph talk about is the poor conditions and attempts at killing British soldiers, but never any remorse for his actions.
-Michael
In Young Patriot and Tom O'Brien's stories, these 2 soldiers seem less excperienced in war than the people around them. In both, the soldiers are scared, Joseph and Tom, but Tom seems more scared about killing someone than Joseph. In my opinion, maybe Joseph was less worried about killing people (because he knew he had to in a war) and more worried about the freezing cold and lack of supplies. Maybe those things distracted him from the fighting and killing. In Tom's case, he seemed very new at war when he killed the man, but he didn't have anything else on his mind at the time, so maybe he was frightened more.
Interesting, it sounds like in war the enitre battle is just pure instincte of survival. I know if I killed someone I would linger on who he was and such for a long time. I might even go to his funeral I can't tell but I would probably just try to get away from it. The two wars seemed very different. With Joseph Martin after they won a battle they would all rejoice, but in Ambush it seemed like a very dark war and no one celebrated exept that one guy after Tim killed the man.
I had a question regarding tactics, in ambushes in the Vietnemies war I know they used grenades often, but didn't they have only a small suply with their unit?? Also the basic tactic of a ambush as I know it with slow reloding guns is to have a rally of shots and wene the enemy is confused to toss in a few grenades. Or with fast loading guns it is the same thing but you have some snipers and then toss grenades. Anyway im getting carried away but my questoin is was it usual to use a grenade in every encounter and how many would they caarry??
'The man I killed' and 'Ambush' were the story of an american soldier killing a man, split into two. In the end they became two completely seperate stories. Some differances for example were timing and point of view. 'The man I killed' is after the incident, discribing what it was like afterwards. 'Ambush' takes place right before it, showing how things got to be where they are. 'The man I killed' doesn't really feature Tim that much. It is more focused on Kiowa comforting Tim. 'Ambush' is all about Tim describing his feelings in the moments before and during the death of the man.
Waters says...
I think that both of the stories add considerable information to the other. If you just read A Young Patriot, you might not grasp the full concept of the hardships the soldiers faced daily. If you just read Ambush, you might just think that there was no hope or victory in the soldiers daily existence. In the New York TImes Magazine several weeks ago there was an article about a Child Soldier in Africa. In this article it says how he was horrified when he killed a person at first, but after a time and many doses of drugs he became a meer killing machine. This is similar to the situation described in Ambush. WHen the man kills the other person, he feels horrible and cannot help staring at the man for a very long time. So all in all I think that both stories add great depth to each other.
Good job on the site!
Leslie S.
Period 3-4
Doyle
These two stories have very different feelings to them. These stories really make you see how much war has changes for the soldiers that fight. In AYP Joseph was right in there in the action, not hesitating a moment for shooting his musket. He knew that these other people (the British soldiers) were the things separating him from what he wanted and believed, and he will do anything to get it. One pull of the trigger on his musket and the other is dead, and Joseph wouldn't mind it. Joseph was a volinteer in the army, and knew what he was getting into. But, in "Ambush" Tim has a totaly different grasp in reality. He knows that once he pulls the trigger, or pull the pin of the grinade, the person he will kill will actually be dead, gone, never to be heard or seen again. He didn't sign up for this, he was drafted, he might not even believe in what the whole war is fighting for. These differences show how much we have changed over the years. in the time of AYP we could choose what to do, and how to live our lives, we could fight for what we believed in and be proud of ourselvs, or just stay at home with the family and become a scholar. But, in "Ambush" anyone could have their whole lives turned upside down in a moment, by the force of a draft. Tims life has been turned inside out and upside down, while Joseph has planned what he will do the moment he gets into the armyl, and is excited. These men have completally different experences in the army and it saddens me greatly when i think of what the diffrences are.
Gaya Coomaraswamy
8-9 periods
2/05/07
I think that in both of the readings, the soldiers were both scared. but Joseph was more prepared. he knew what he was going into and he went and signed up. Tom did not want to go to war but knew he had to. Joseph did not HAVE to but out of his own will he signed up. Tom was definetely more aware and scared about killing a man I think mostly because he had no real or personal offence against the korean. Joseph was forced to pay taxes for the English and had to live under their ruling. Tom was fighting for his country whereas Joseph was fighting for his freedom.
I think that both of the two Soldiers in the story have never seem the horror of killing people and they are scared of it. In the two short storys the main caracter Tim is horrified at what he had done when he killed the Soldier. The same was true at the begining og the A Young Patriot. Josheph was scared of killing someone too. One difference was that the style of r=writing was different in the two stories. The A young patriot is writen like a history book. It just basiacaly gves factes of what happened. In the short stories the writer is writing on a person al level. His story made me think abaout what being a soldier would have really been like. In a Young Patiriot the boo is just a history.
By reading A Young Patriot I can agree with Kiowa's urging Tim to leave and get over it. In war, events happen quickly, and one can't linger over one man, when in a big battle many get killed.
The readings are different not only in perspective, but in what each focuses on. Joseph only describes the marches and hardships within the army. Tim, on the other hand, tells about actual "exchange" between two opposing sides.
Before, I had only a general idea of the hardships of war: starving, cold, etc. From reading AYP I get a more in depth understanding. Also, I didn't think anyone could remeber one man in all the confusion of war.
In the two readings "A young Patriot" and "Ambush"/"The man I killed" that both soldiers Tim and Joseph that they wanted to join because they wanted to serve for their country and they had always wanted to be a soldier. However, I think that neither soldier really knew what it would be like, so they just joined not knowing what would come to them. They Realized that being in war, a terrible experience but when they left they missed the feeling of being a soldier. Also, Joseph did not really seem to realize what was going on, like if he shoot a man, but Tim when he killed a man, he couldn't let it go, it really dug into him. He really was emotionally hurt, because when he saw what he did, he probably realized what he had done, hurt so many people in so many ways.
This really shows what war can do to a person, the people who loved the person, the person who was killed, and the person who killed the other.
The story "A Young Patriot" and "Ambush" are very different stories, even if they're both about war. AYP tells about a Joseph's whole experience as a soldier, where as Ambush just tells one memory-probably the most remembered one by Tim-in lots of detail.
~Jessica C.
I thought that the man in ambush was very similar to one of the soldiers in the movie Saving Private Ryan which was a great movie. The soldier in Saving Private Ryan who is wimpy and very scared is similar to tim because they both do kill somebody and feel very split. One side is saying "you did the right thing, for you and your country" and the other is saying "but he was just another innocent person and didn't want war just like you!"allthough its very rough language and sad i thought that it was very descripted and well written.
Dorval C.
When I read Ayp and the two tim obrien stories I thought that they did alot of the same things that George Washingtons army did which was guerrilla fighting and ambushing their enemys. so besides the weaponry getting more advanced warfare hasnt really changed that much. I also think Joseph was a little more willing to join the army and you could do it whenever you wanted to. but in ambush tim obrien didnt really have a choice because if you didnt join the army but you were called upon then you would go to jail. and tim obrien probably had food and a blanket and stuff like that so they might have been a little more happy even if they didnt want to be there.
Most ideas stated have "taken the words out of my mouth," or siad it better than I would. However, there is one point I feel especialy, intressting. In essence the sides of the two wars are switched in that America is now the big power. So Joseph is the guerill a fighter and Tim is the industrial power backed proffesional soldier. As a questiom of couriosity, what would it have been like if they had been in the same war?
-JRB
In both storys i think that they both didn't want to go to war because there was a draft. They were both scared but for joseph he was scared for his life but Tim was scared for the lives of the people he killed and there families. Joseph was not scared after he killed people because he didnt like the british, but Tim was very emotional about killing people because he thought that they didnt deserve to die. He also made up the people he killed's backround as a way to comfort himself. after the war Tim didnt seem like he had any bad thoughts about the way people would treat him like Joseph did. over all i thought that neither of them wanted to be in the war and they both fear the war.
I just bought "The Things They Carried" from borders its a good book.
Mac
I think that the reactions to the wars was different in the two stories because in A Young Patriot, the war was more about his countries freedom and the final result of the war really impacted him, however in The Things They Carried, it was more like someone elses war, because they were fighting for someone elses ability not to be free, the result of the vietnam war doesn't direclty impact Tim O'Brien. I think Tim O'Brien feels more depressed from the man he killed because he just killed a man for being there, the only thing that the vietnamesse wanted was their own countries freedom. Joseph was kind of like the man tim O'Brien killed because he was the one that wanted the British (or people that refused to let his countrey have freedom)off his land, (like the vietnamesse).
-Taylor
In both stories, Joseph and Tim are alike because they feel the same way about killing others. In Young Patriot, the continental army doesn't follow the "rules of warfare", but in the Tim O'Brien reading, it seemed like it was not winter, it was daytime, and they traveled in groups or pairs. After reading both, I now understand that no armies do the same thing as others, and if you are fighting in a war...someone's gonna die sonner or later.
Sally L.
Per.8-9
After reading some of the posts I really just wanted to added that Tim was much more younger. Were as Joeph was much more older and more matured. Joseph really didn't show his emotions or should I say he was able to control his emotions better then Tim. So basically it was just two very different points of veiw.
I think that both of the soliers were afraid of killing people and tried to avoid it. They were scared and weren't sure what to do or what was to become of them. The thing is one had to go through more phyisicaly on the other hand, the other was going thew mental issues. In AYP, he was left in the cold with almost no supplies and almost no food, then in "Ambush" he was thinking about the man that he killed and how he felt guilty. Both of them weren't sure of what they were doing there and they wanted to leave, the only problem was that they didn't know where to go if the left. In "Ambush" when his daughter asked him if he had ever killer anyone. He lied as if trying to hide it and was afraid of what he did. Then on the other hand, Joseph seemed afraid of what he could do. My perspective didn't really change after reading both of them. Really they are two different stories about the same topics. They don't have much in common. Really they seem to be to opposite. In "Ambush" People supported Tim, people were concerned about him and what might happen to him if they left him alone. On the other hand, Joseph's story was every man for himself. It was hard enough to survive in the cold with the smallpox epidemic going around, it would be even harder if they had to take care of someone else too. They were also in different time periods, so it's hard to compair them, on had much better technology and better weapons and the other has almost nothing.
In Both stories i could tell that the main soldiers were very young and scared. In A Young Patriot, O'brian describes the soldiers very graphically. For Example he would describe hwo the soldiers were almost bare, starved, and had trails of blood from their exposed feet. In "The Man I Killed", describes graphically what the body of the man he killed looked like. For exampel he continuosly said that the man's jaw was in his neck. In both stories I saw that he described the physical features of the characters very well.In AYP, the main character soldier didn't seem to much afraid to shoot or kill someone. As in TMIK, the main soldier was petrified when he killed someone and never got over it. The two readings are very different adn the same. They are the same in the way that they are written, but they are different because both stories have a different perspective on war.
Jessica H.
Even though Tim O'Brien and Joseph are proud to go to war, they are both scared what might be the aftermath.
they both really are not very in to the whole idea of killing. they don't want to die either. the real idea of simply being there isn't so big on there part. i think that they mostly would rather be at home. though joseph seems to become more saavy when it comes to war. he learns to be a better soldier. we don't actually know wheter or not tim becomes a great soldier but we do know he survived so he must have been at least slightly good. i think that in the long run they probably both would rather have been at home. not to say that either one was truly very in to the idea of war like i said previously. they are not truly war mugerers they don't necassarily want war and death they know they will regret it later. but it does seem that one thing that is majorly different between them joseph is more strong when it comes to killing people then tim he got threw a war were he must have killed at least ten people and he didn't seem to mind nearly as much as tim.
As most people have said, Joseph in "A Young Patriot" seems much less sensitive and empathetic than Tim in "Ambush" and "The Man I Killed". I think maybe part of Joseph's thoughtfulness was lost because he had other things to worry about that were more important to him. He had to get food and equipment and other things just to keep himself alive. Tim was fighting a much better provisioned, more even war than Joseph so he had a lot more time and energy to think about everything he did. It's kind of hard to compare the two people though because Joseph didn't use a grenade to blow someone up. That's a pretty brutal way to die. I think that maybe Tim might not have reacted so strongly if he had killed the person in a slightly less brutal way.
--Sam S-F
they have the same battle against fear but Tim O'brian is not really scared he is more woried about killing people that had lives and didn't want to be in the war. Joseph is different he is afraid to die and shoot people. i would be to if i was that young. It says he was one f the youngest in the war.
Shane
jamie said
I think that it was very true that people somtimes forgive them selfs and some times don't. one of my moms friends was in the war and my dads dad was in world war 2 they never like talking about it but they somtimes tell me that they never killed a man.
In Ambush Tim is mad at himself. he ca't belive what he has done. If he could have done it again he would have never started the war. Joseph however is proud of what he is doing. Joseph might have done more if he could.
Marty G-C
Good post.
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